I’m constantly inspired by the beautiful women I meet, and the Women of Carbon embody this inspiration in the most remarkable way. Sitting down with Basia Myszynski, the visionary director behind it all, was an absolute privilege. Basia doesn’t just direct—she creates worlds that resonate deeply, with brilliance, passion, and unwavering commitment to her craft. This empowering conversation highlights the incredible women who are revolutionizing the construction industry as they fight climate change. In walks Basia, alongside her partner Leonard—together, we discuss their journey, the challenges they face, and the collective power of women shaping a sustainable future. Basia’s impact on my life has been profound, encouraging me to think differently and grow in ways I never imagined. I hope this interview can do the same for you, dear reader.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: Hello, everyone! I’m here at the Newport Beach Film Festival with a very special guest whose work I truly admire. She directed the powerful film Women of Carbon alongside her filmmaking partner, Leonard Myszynski. Please join me in welcoming Basia! Hello, Basia!

Basia Myszynski: Hi, Nicole! How are you?

Nicole Alicia Xavier: I’m well, thank you! Women of Carbon was so influential to me. I really didn’t expect to feel so uplifted and motivated after watching it. I’d love to hear more about what inspired you to tell this particular story.

Basia Myszynski: I was looking for an environmental film topic that was unique and highly educational. Our previous films were biopics, two of which focused on the built environment, engineering, and advanced technologies. We wanted to tell a story that was slightly different from what's being presented out there, as well as offer a perspective that hadn’t been approached before. When we discovered that the built environment was a major part of the problem—a key polluter—we knew this would be our focus. However, it was still too broad a topic. Research led us to women at the forefront of sustainability—and delving deeper into my personal passion: the intersection between motherhood and climate action. I set out to explore that theory to see if there was something there. Sure enough, we found strong intergenerational bonds between mothers and their children, which would become a key part of our story. The father figures were also influential in shaping their daughters, which we discovered through the process of interviewing the women. A distinct pattern emerged when backstories were shared: father-daughter influences were huge. Of course, new innovations and technological advancements in building materials were also critical aspects of this story. The construction industry is transforming, and leaders in this industry are faced with the urgent need to address climate change—or be left behind. And women are driving it!

Nicole Alicia Xavier: Wow, there’s so much depth in what you just shared. Each woman brings such a unique and powerful perspective to the film, and somehow, all of those voices come together in a way that feels incredibly cohesive and beautiful. It's truly remarkable. When it comes to navigating the process of selecting who to feature, I imagine there must have been so many other women you considered connecting with. It must have been difficult to narrow it down. What was it that made you choose the women who ultimately made it into the film? I can’t imagine how challenging that decision must have been.

Basia Myszynski:: Let me preface by saying that most of our choices centered around the evolution of building materials, and that’s what determined our selection of women—who, what, and which innovations were transformative in the industry. We couldn’t depend on any single construction material or building sector to address the climate crisis. Fossil fuel emissions must be reduced across all sectors. Ultimately, we decided to focus on three building materials: mass timber, alternative cements, and greener steel. We found some of the solutions for new materials to be incredibly innovative and important. From there, we sought out women who either invented, represented, or advanced these materials and methodologies, each with unique personal and professional stories. Others offered radical ideas about low-carbon manufacturing. There were also several segments centered around specific projects. The PDX airport terminal expansion was one of the most powerful on mass timber, due to its scalability and the stories related to the design, construction, and technologies. The women involved and their partners really touched on some beautiful stories. The Greenville megafire was another segment tied to one of our Women of Carbon, reflecting the impacts of extreme climate conditions and affordable post-fire rebuilding, which we believed would really drive climate impacts home. The mass timber shake test was an addition that not only took a closer look at this new 21st-century building material but also symbolically showed a large presence of women in construction helmets. The overarching message behind Women of Carbon was to bring together women innovators from competing industries, united by a shared mission: to protect our health, provide economic opportunities, and restore the planet. Each woman (and ally) had her place in the story... And it all started with the exceptional Mija Hubler, whom I know you've already interviewed.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: I love Mija.

Basia Myszynski:: Many CEOs offered completely different perspectives. Mija’s interview was our most extensive, as we had several sessions with her. We were able to observe her over time and in different situations. We saw progress with alternative cement solutions. As I mentioned to you earlier—and to add a bit of drama—there was a fire in Boulder during our first visit to UC Boulder, where Mija teaches, yet she still met with us to show us around her lab, while her 7-year-old daughter and husband waited for Mija in their car to be evacuated. Now that’s dedication. Her story was powerful—she was one of the most creative women we spoke to, and her projects and ideas were diverse and never-ending. She was also very vulnerable, which she revealed in the movie. Walking into her immense lab was also an unforgettable experience, with the varied infrastructural projects taking place. Another standout was Freya Burton, whose work in the industry is extraordinary. She’s the Chief Sustainability Officer of a startup that scaled rapidly. Freya also connected us with LanzaTech’s CEO, Jennifer Holmgren, who was equally impressive. I loved that we had such a generational range in the women we featured—both Leah Ellis, as the youngest CEO, and Jennifer Holmgren, as the oldest. Many CEOs, and each offered completely different perspectives. We even showcased a woman in the Pacific Northwest who is the co-owner of Hyla Woods. It’s a family-owned forestry business, and she shared her passionate views about gender equity as “For true environmental justice, we need to have equity with the animals, insects, and the forest itself.” Each woman brought something very special to the table. It was no easy task weaving their stories together into one story. One last point—we narrowed our search to women innovating in the USA. There were women referred to us or who approached us from outside the US, but we wanted an American story.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: That’s incredible. The range of stories and perspectives you were able to capture really highlights the diverse approaches women are taking to address climate change and sustainability. It’s inspiring to see how each of these women, despite facing different challenges, are making such powerful contributions to their industries. Watching it, I felt like the film flew by. It was so engaging that I found myself thinking, "There needs to be more!" So, I’m curious—do you perhaps have a director’s cut with a longer version of the film? It would be amazing to see even more of the story and the incredible women you featured.

Basia Myszynski: (playfully) The truth?

Nicole Alicia Xavier: Yes.

Basia Myszynski: Constant battles with my partner regarding length, versions, stories, additional themes, and segments. This is just how we work, I guess. There’s always something that needs to be fixed, omitted, or tweaked. It was actually Leonard’s idea (she gestures to her filmmaking partner, Leonard, who is sitting in the chair next to her) to bring in the younger generation to actually speak—he wanted to shift the perspective by including people from the community, especially the kids, and see how they view the environment. I thought that was brilliant—absolutely brilliant. You have these women speaking about their work, and then you have these young people sharing how they feel about the environment. As we went on, we kept including younger and younger voices. Seven-year-old Marcus, who was here yesterday in the audience, shared his dreams for the planet, based on what he was learning at school. These young generations are so knowledgeable about our environment and are open to sharing this passion. In the end, we focused on a 57-minute version of the film. We think one hour was spot-on for this topic, for this narrative, and for our overall Women of Carbon story. More details or more women would have been too much and would have weakened our story.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: With all that great material, I think we need a director’s cut in the future.

Basia Myszynski: Well, about the director's cut—yeah, making the story longer was definitely something we thought about. Creating a series divided into building materials was one possibility, but we quickly eliminated that idea. No budget for that, and it seemed less interesting. I am usually the one who chooses the subject matter. In this case, I researched, interviewed by phone, and made initial selections of women based on their innovations, insights, and their personal and professional stories and struggles. Leonard and I agreed on which stories would be most effective and worked well together, highlighting impactful building materials. Understanding carbon and its correlation to a changing climate also needed to be effectively explained. The structure of the film and the editing were continually changing, based on focus groups and our judgment. Leonard looks at the bigger picture, embellishing story elements with new visuals and production aspects, such as animation, etc. “How can we tell this story in a more dynamic way visually and symbolically? Give it more depth.” So, he expanded the scope of the story by introducing young adults with families, speaking on the meaning of the environment while at the beach. One of our assistants also provided the underwater environmental shots (whales, human interactions with divers). Leonard also introduced the optical gas imaging camera, which captured the invisible carbon dioxide in various locations, such as at factories, on streets, and even in homes. That was a really important part of the film to give carbon context because, as you know, carbon dioxide is invisible to the naked eye.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: That’s fascinating. Were there any moments or themes that you really wanted to include but had to leave out? How did you make those tough decisions?

Basia Myszynski: Yes, we couldn’t find a good place to show how human health is impacted by a changing climate and how this became a growing concern as environmental devastation became more intense and frequent. Our environment is so closely linked to wellness, and we had a powerful story/theme that had to be removed. It was unfortunate. Remember the Greenville fire? Ken was narrating his personal story, and he shared how children in the area were suffering from PTSD as a result of the megafire. The trauma and stress they endured were overwhelming. As a creative artist, Ken came up with a simple idea: he created a coloring book for the younger children to help them cope. The story helped teach them how small tractors were metaphorically coming together to rebuild their communities and move forward, which was actually taking place during the rebuilding phase. He was also writing plays and organizing a “post-fire theatre” to help the older children process, express themselves, and heal, which, in turn, helped adults heal. Ken mentioned the importance of our childhoods in how we perceive our world and environment. Pretty amazing concept! Yet, it was too powerful and would have overtaken all the other stories. However, the broader message still resonated with us—about the impacts of climate change on children and how adults must ultimately protect the children. We often talk about what displaced adults experience after fires or floods or environmental catastrophes—losing homes, facing financial hardships, dealing with insurance issues—but what about the kids? Ken’s approach was brilliant. Perhaps we will explore that in a short film about mental health impacts after environmental disasters, especially those caused by global warming and climate change, because we think it’s incredibly important. I think we incorporated this, but it came from the individual women in the film.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: I completely agree—it’s amazing how the environment can impact our health in ways we often don’t realize, like the way natural materials like wood can improve the air quality and even help us breathe better. It really speaks to the connection between nature and well-being. You took a really unconventional path in your career, one that I find incredibly inspiring. You could have pursued anything—from feature directing to more commercial work— but instead, you've chosen to focus on films that serve a greater purpose and have a real impact on the community. What was it that motivated you to take this direction, and how did you come to realize that this was the kind of filmmaker you wanted to be?

Basia Myszynski: My background is in the performing arts, specifically theatre. My parents were both immigrants from Poland who came to the US after WWII. My mother had a huge influence on my creativity. She was also my first stage director. An amateur actress herself, she introduced me to the world of Polish plays, art, paintings, literary circles, films, and “all things Polish.” Growing up, I often interacted with Polish artists, composers, musicians, and directors visiting my parents’ home. I studied theater at the University of California, Irvine, where I received my Bachelor of Arts in Drama, and later graduated with a Master of Fine Arts from the Polish Film Academy, where I met my partner, Leonard. That’s when I realized, "Whoa, this isn’t only about narrative filmmaking and acting. This cinematic medium in Europe is also about mood, rhythms, diverse layers and tones, and underlying messages." It was in Poland at the Film Academy that I really started learning about documentary filmmaking, where it was so integral to everyday politics. Poland was an occupied country under communism and the Soviet Union’s rule. Visual storytelling in Poland (as in many Eastern European countries at the time) focused on telling the story in subtle ways, more symbolically, making points metaphorically. And the emphasis was always on the truth—what’s really going on beneath the surface. Truth, truth, truth. I was fascinated by these various forms of Polish expression using the visual arts, sound, music, theatre, and cinematic art forms as vehicles to tell critical messages. At the Academy, many cinematographers were directors. Working with Leonard as a cinematographer, I quickly realized we were better suited to tell documentary stories rather than feature films. Documentaries felt more accessible to us—less of a massive production, fewer funds required. That’s not to say we didn’t care to do features. We produced short films in Poland, but when we came to the U.S., we soon discovered that documentary storytelling had a real personal resonance for us. For me, it’s always about finding a story that speaks to something deeper, something little known, and then bringing that person, perspective, or idea to life. With Women of Carbon specifically, we wanted to embolden people to speak up—especially women and young people, as well as industry professionals, to step up their game. We wanted to provoke them, to show them that documentary filmmaking could be a powerful tool for them, for this movement, especially one showcasing so many brilliant and diverse minds coming together for one cause.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: Given your background in both Poland and the U.S., I’m curious—how do you see the documentary filmmaking landscape differing between these two cultures? I’ve noticed that international directors, whether from Italy, Poland, or elsewhere, often have a distinct approach compared to American filmmakers. You mentioned the emphasis on truth in Poland—what are some of the key differences you’ve observed in how documentaries are approached and made in these different contexts?

Basia Myszynski: I definitely witnessed this 'seeking of truth' in Polish filmmaking in the '80s. Leonard and I attended a well-known film school that produced some of the world’s most prolific filmmakers, including documentarians. I’m not sure how familiar you are with this concept, but Cinema Vérité historically shaped filmmakers in that part of the world. It was about observation and authenticity, rather than manipulation. You must understand the context—people were living under communist rule. So, documentary films were extremely important. Whereas, I think American documentary filmmakers at that time were focused more on the narrative voice-over, the linear storytelling, the use of archival footage, and were heavy on interviews. Leonard and I have very different approaches to making films. I’m all about the spoken word, 'the interview,' perhaps due to my American upbringing. Whereas, Leonard focuses on what’s unsaid, what’s invisible. That's something I learned at the Film Academy—it’s about capturing what’s not immediately seen, in between the lines. He’s always looking for that symbolism, for the layers beneath the surface. It’s far richer. So, for me, the biggest takeaway was not just the pursuit of truth, but how to tell that truth in a way that’s more impactful—often more poetic, abstract, and metaphorical. And Leonard is incredible at that. He has this ability to take it to another level. I think our film reflects both worlds, American and Polish filmmaking.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: The way you describe Leonard's approach to focusing on what’s not immediately seen, adds such depth to the films you both create.

Basia Myszynski: It’s about the vision. There are many ways to approach storytelling. Leonard often asks, 'How can we tell this in a way that’s more meaningful, more emotional for the audience member, and thus more memorable?' And I think Women of Carbon embodies some of these elements in several segments. For example, I love the scene with the smokestacks. You see those smokestacks, and it’s not that they symbolize dirty polluters, but rather how young people can make change by looking at these smokestacks differently. Remember the scene referencing their role in shaping their own futures? The smoke returns to its origins inside the smokestacks to suggest reversing global warming through the acts and wills of these young people and, of course, by the positive gains made by the innovators. Another such example is the young surfer holding his surfboard under his arm while standing in 'empty space,' devoid of any environment. Leonard created context by adding the ocean backdrop in the next scene, introducing the critical relationship between man and the environment. The surfer’s world is a symbiotic relationship with nature. This is another reason we chose California beaches to help embellish our story. What would our lives be like without these beaches if we continue without making changes? Such visual metaphors make the message far more powerful, richer, and leave lasting impressions for the audience.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: Oh, I agree.

Leonard Myszynski: We are independent filmmakers.

Basia Myszynski: Yes, it’s very important for us to point out that we are independent filmmakers and what that means in producing films such as this one.

Leonard Myszynski: Because we are independent and work with a small team, we have greater flexibility to connect with these people.

Basia Myszynski: We purposely keep our team to a minimum— in this case, just the two of us. Assistants helped in only a few segments—which is why the people we work with trust us, get to know us, and open up even more.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: It's fascinating that Leonard brings up the strength of the independent filmmaking market, especially when the market seems stronger than ever. As a team, how do you navigate the tension between staying true to your own vision and the temptation to pursue something more mainstream with broader commercial appeal? How do you stay grounded in your own creative choices, knowing that you're deliberately choosing a path that may not have the same mass-market potential as more conventional, mainstream projects?

Basia Myszynski: Well, first of all, while everyone is focused on finding economic opportunities—and that’s important—it’s not really our main priority. For us, it’s about what we’re trying to say, who we’re saying it to, and whether it will have any real impact on their lives. That’s why I love working with you, especially in terms of your writing, because you truly reflect that same vision. You’re a perfect example of that for us. Ultimately, we ask ourselves: will this change someone, even if it’s just one woman, one young person, or one person in the industry? I’m honestly blown away by how much this film is resonating with so many diverse people, especially young people like you.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: Thank you, that’s very true and humbling.

Basia Myszynski: In Portland, at our world premiere, we had a lot of young people in attendance—high school kids with parents, college-aged students, and young professionals—who were eager to change careers and wanted access to the women in the film. They also wanted to learn how they could make a difference for the environment. I thought, wow, that's impactful. I don’t know if we had that same level of engagement with our other films, although all of them were broadcast on public television stations and viewers continue to buy DVDs and watch on VOD streaming platforms—but this film has a different type of reaction. Maybe it’s because we have so many women in this film who are engaged and promoting the film. Maybe it’s the urgency. But to answer your question, for us it’s not about the business side. What’s most important is what we’re teaching kids, our own and others. What will these kids do with this information? Our kids, and some of their partners, now in their 30s, took part in our focus groups for the film at various stages. Their input was invaluable. The fact that they were interested and engaged was very significant for us. Several of the young adult families who appear on screen on local beaches are connected to our kids—they were interested in what we were doing and in participating. And they too had made some very important points. It’s fascinating to see how different their worldviews and perspectives are. That’s what mattered most to us in the making of Women of Carbon—the real focus is always about impact.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: That’s so true! I’ve been watching so many films at the Newport Beach Film Festival, and oh my goodness, this one still ranks in my top five. I’m incredibly proud of both of you for bringing this story to light. Now, let’s circle back to Leah’s contribution—wow, she’s incredible. Like you mentioned, she’s so busy. I couldn’t even get an exclusive interview with her! It’s amazing how much she’s able to do, yet she still contributed so much to this film. I mean, hopefully, her team will circle back in the future, but how were you able to manage working with her given her tight schedule? Did it feel rushed, or were you able to make it work despite the time constraints?

Basia Myszynski: It was all about timing. Leah’s definitely a hot item in her industry now. Her success really took off just this past year. Before that, she was very accessible and willing to work with us. She was incredibly generous. Although at the time Leah understandably wanted to focus on the concrete industry and her team’s electrochemical innovation, she understood the broader story we were attempting to narrate and appreciated it. Her interview was exceptional due to its multi-layered aspects and her ability to communicate her thoughts so well. She has an uncanny ability to speak in a way that both young people and industry professionals can relate to, and that’s her strength in the film. As you know, she became the film’s spokesperson, a parallel narrator, if you will. Almost every host interested in screening our film has asked Leah to participate in the Q&A. She has yet to take part, but I’m sure that day will come. Boston groups are hosting Women of Carbon screenings around her schedule in 2025 (including The Engine with an MIT association). She is focused, disciplined, and really walks the walk. I mean, she doesn't even own a car, which is pretty impressive. It was also amazing to witness her working and interacting with her team, which has extensively expanded since last summer’s Women of Carbon production. The inclusivity, diversity, and respect she cultivated with her team, as well as the women’s network group she leads, were truly inspiring. Allowing us to observe her in home, work, and private settings was an intimate experience we felt privileged to document.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: It's amazing how much trust and openness can shape the filmmaking process. You don’t often see that kind of openness in mainstream media, and it really elevates the work. How about the featured men in Women of Carbon?

Basia Myszynski: The men selected were supplemental to our stories and to the featured women and their work. For example, Leah introduced us to Yet-Ming Chiang, an MIT professor and co-founder of Sublime Systems. They both began their careers in batteries. He has founded many startups related to mitigating climate change through battery efficiency while creating new tools to improve clean energy technologies. When interviewed, Yet-Ming stated he has treated female co-workers the same throughout his entire professional life. He is a builder and educator of both men and women—a man of great ideas! Sean Simpson, founder of LanzaTech, who resides and works in New Zealand, reflected on the unique status of this current generation, which sees everything we are facing in a different light. These men were extremely knowledgeable and just as compassionate and brilliant as their female counterparts. Wil Sruber of UC Boulder is very representative of this “new generation of infrastructure materials.” His Living Materials Lab integrates biology, chemistry, and traditional materials. Wil introduced us to Mija, who influenced him as well. They have an enormous impact on young people and the industry. While we met and supplemented the film with some of these exceptional men in sustainability, this was not our focus. Yet, we believe their selected soundbites were very profound and introduced critical insights in understanding carbon and the role building materials play in solving our climate dilemma. Their purpose was also to emphasize the power of the collaborative spirit.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: I think that’s so powerful because, like Stacy and Mija, you all shared the same sentiment—that the support around you is what truly allows you to thrive. You can’t take full credit, even though we see you flourishing in such inspiring ways. And it’s easy to assume you’re doing it all on your own, but the reality is, you have a team, you have Leonard. It’s so beautiful to see that level of collaboration, and it also says so much about the men you’ve chosen to have in your lives—clearly, you’ve chosen wisely. I think it would be wonderful if you could speak on the importance of choosing a partner who has the same strength, vision, and capabilities. For women who are career-driven and ambitious, having a partner who can support and grow with you is crucial. A strong, equal partnership can either make or break you, and we've seen that with so many women who are on the rise—sometimes, things can take a turn when the wrong partnership is in place. Highlighting that dynamic and its impact could be so valuable for others to hear.

Basia Myszynski: A partner cannot be threatened by the other’s growth or success. Leonard challenges me every single day—whether in business, within our creative process, or in our personal lives. He insists that things can be more captivating if approached from a different angle, whether in understanding the story, the movie, or in many situations. He sees far beyond the ordinary or what’s right in front of us. It's one thing for a partner to be supportive, but it’s not enough in a creative collaboration. Sometimes, I will admit, it’s quite intense. It takes a lot of emotional strength and discipline to be creative and work with strong-willed creative people. A partner cannot be threatened by your growth or success. I’m still working to accept this. A challenging partner provides greater satisfaction for both. As they say, 'No pain, no gain.' In the end, the results can be very exciting!

Nicole Alicia Xavier: Beautifully said.

Basia Myszynski: And yet, he's the quiet one, right? (looks over at Leonard) We're so different, and I think that's really important. Partners have to be different, bringing something unique to the table. That’s what makes it work.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: I completely agree—having that shared focus and mutual values is what truly anchors a partnership, both in life and in creative work. That's exactly how I approach relationships as well. I think Women of Carbon is the perfect documentary, and I can only imagine the challenges you faced in making it—securing funding and maintaining an artistic vision must have been incredibly tough. So, how do you navigate those obstacles, find balance, and still maintain the strength to push forward?

Basia Myszynski: Compromise.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: Understood

Basia Myszynski: I think that's the secret to the success of the creative process as well as a good marriage: you pick your battles.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: Wow, that's really beautiful. So, what's next for both of you? I mean, Women of Carbon—I can only imagine what's coming next for you. You’re already receiving such amazing reviews. You must be incredibly proud of what you've achieved. Are you?

Basia Myszynski: Of course, we’re very proud. There’s another film we’ve been working on, called I Motherhood. Unfortunately, we didn’t secure enough funding for it. It was about women’s reproductive journeys and the impacts of technology, the environment, the medical industry, and society on outcomes. You might have seen some short video clips on our sOlar eye website—five, three-minute clips—discussing how all these factors impact women, especially in relation to motherhood. Our daughters have faced a much more challenging reproductive journey than I ever experienced. It’s a completely different reality, thus my interest in this topic. During COVID and pre-production, it was already a controversial and difficult topic. Today, the subject is almost impossible to get funded from outside sources due to the political nature of the subject. Nevertheless, it’s a film that’s still very important to me. Thankfully, some of those themes were showcased very naturally in Women of Carbon. Watching these women balance their careers and motherhood has been eye-opening. Although I would often ask them about their children, they freely weaved this topic into our conversations. It’s clear how much they want their kids to understand what they’re doing and what’s happening on our planet. They are deeply committed to instilling these core values about the environment and its critical importance for the future—and of course, emphasizing the vital role of “Mama Earth.” Looking ahead, we may produce a short film that delves deeper into one or two of our themes in Women of Carbon. We will see. Lots of subjects related to climate change interest us, and we’ve met many individuals who have inspired new ideas. What I’ve learned through this journey is that Mother Earth is truly the greatest technology out there. The secret is in the Earth itself.

Nicole Alicia Xavier: Right? Isn’t it? Everything always finds its way back to Mother Earth.

Basia Myszynski: Full circle. There are so many bio-based materials to explore—everything is interconnected. One of my favorite lines from the movie is when Rachael Jamison says, “What’s happening in the environment is a reflection of what’s happening inside our bodies.” It’s a profound statement about women that really struck me. We truly hope the film makes people pause and reflect. Will it motivate them? Will it challenge them enough to become activists, in whatever way they can? That’s our hope.